This Sunday the RS lesson came from Chapter 35 in the Joseph Smith book. We talked about the necessity of doing ordinances for those who have passed on. We spoke of the importance of this doctrine and the strength it gives us in dealing with death.
The SS lessons addressed the idea of seeking learning We talked about the different types of learning both secular and nonsecular.
So, as always, if you didn't have time to comment, or have thought of something new, please post your comments (you can always comment anonymously)
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
What I love about temple work is that while we are doing work to bless somebody else, we are also being blessed ourselves because we get the opportunity to feel the peace of the temple and the spirit that is there.
ReplyDeleteSomething from the lesson struck me and I did't get a chance to comment on it on Sunday. There is this part in the lesson where Joseph Smith says,
ReplyDelete"I will suppose a case which is not extraordinary: Two men, who have been equally wicked, who have neglected religion, are both of them taken sick at the same time; one of them has the good fortune to be visited by a praying man, and he gets converted a few moments before he dies; the other sends for three different praying me, a tailor, a shoemaker, and a tinmman; the tinman has a handle to solder to a pan, the tailor has a buttonhole to work on some coat that he needed in a hurry, and the shoemaker has a patch to put on somebody's boot; they none of them can go in time, the man dies, and goes to hell: one of these is exalted to Abrahman's bosom, he sits down in the presence of God and enjoys eternal, uninterrupted happiness, while the other, equally good as he, sinks to eternal damnation, irretrievable misery and hopeless despair, because a man had a boot to mend, the buttonhole of a coat to work, or a handle to solder on to a saucepan."
I just like this quote a lot - sometimes I feel an overwhelming responsibility for people. Like if I had done something a little differently, than they would still be active in the church or have accepted the gospel. Yes, of course we should be doing our best. But God has made a way for people to be saved when other people get held up because of temporal responsibilities. And that is comforting to me.
The Lord has a way to get his work accomplished. Of course it benefits me tremendously to participate in that work, but he also has a way to take care of things when I drop the ball.
In terms of redemption - I guess I've never really understood the importance or necessity of these ordinances for the dead. I can see that when we perform these ordinances for ourselves -- getting baptised or our own endowments or other ordinances -- then the experience can be meaningful, deeply symbolic, and a way for us to formally declare our commitment to God (or our spouse, if we're getting married or something). I can also see that performing these ordinances for the deceased remind us... not only of our own covenants, but of the people who have gone before us, and - in a way - of the people who will come after us. But I don't understand why it's NECESSARY. Why God would require this.
ReplyDeleteI wish I had been able to attend this lesson. Was this issue discussed?
In response to Newt's comment-
ReplyDeleteI think that first of all, God makes all equal. If we did not do the redemptive work for the dead than those who did not themselves perform these ordinances would miss out on the opportunities. Without the ordinances no one can be saved. I am not sure if this is the question you are asking- another way to address your question would be from the point of not understanding why they cannot just wait for the second coming and then partake in the ordinances. If this is what you are asking then it is in order that they can move more readily and quickly move from spirit prison into paradise. Without the ordinances they are trapped in spirit prison no matter their what their life was like. Also, those who have not partaken in all the covenants cannot come forth in the first resurrection. I hope this helps.
I guess maybe I simply don't understand why the ordinances are necessary, for anyone, actually. I mean, for the living, I can see why they're meaningful, useful even, in that they remind us of what we believe. But I don't understand why, for anyone's eternal salvation - living or dead - they are a 'must.'
ReplyDeleteYou say "without the ordinances no one can be saved." I don't get it. It has just always seemed like an arbitrary requirement to me. Not that I think the ordinances are bad; in fact I think they are beautiful and metaphorical, that they embody a rich language with which to mark our spiritual progress, and a unique dimension to explore and grow as we repeat them over and over. So, I guess what I'm asking is this: are the ordinances a requirement for salvation the same way that getting a professional license is a requirement to legally practice that profession? Or are the ordinances "required" because physically participating in them (and we return to the spirit-mind-body lesson) helps us to understand ourselves and our relationship to the Divine better?
If the latter, then WHY? Unlike the governing body of each profession, which does not intimately know the history of each prospective professional and therefore mandates that candidates for licensure prove their qualification, I would like to believe that God DOES know us intimately, our dispositions, our stories, our griefs and struggles, our reactions to different situations, and our performance in all of life's "tests." I would think if God knows all of these things, then that would be proof enough, and what is the need to jump through these 'hoops'?
If the former, then it seems like something that would primarily benefit the living, as they are the ones actually going through the process. So why all this dogma about other people's salvation riding on our willingness to perform these actions for them? Once again, I love the symbolism there, we depend upon one another (as well as God) for our salvation, but I just don't get the seemingly arbitrary requirement.
Does my question even make sense?
I wasn’t there for this lesson, but I’d like to add a few comments. The whole concept of doing ordinances for the dead has always confused me. Like Newt, I just don’t understand why this is necessary.
ReplyDeleteThis may be a bit off topic, but I think this one doctrine is the primary reason people believe we are not Christian. John Taylor taught that through temple service we become “joint saviors with Christ.” Doesn’t that mean that Christ’s Atonement is not actually infinite? That the Atonement alone is not sufficient for all the millions of people that died without knowledge of the LDS church? I would think that God in His infinite wisdom, knows each of us well enough to bring about our redemption and salvation without any sort of arbitrary requirement that the proper paperwork be completed by members of the LDS church.
I realize that temple service is extremely meaningful to some people. Nevertheless, it saddens me somewhat that so many people spend their time serving the dead in our temples, while ignoring the living all around them that would actually benefit more from our service. I, for one, don’t want to waste my entire life by spending it solely focused on eternity.
Newt - your question makes a lot of sense.
ReplyDeleteI think to a degree, it may be "arbitrary", as you say (It seems like a lot of things the Father requires are arbitrary, but he knows a lot more than me). Let’s take a look at a scenario where no ordinances are required for salvation - that thought process helped me quite a bit.
Father presents the plan of salvation to all His children before the foundation of the earth. The goal of mortality is to learn of the gospel, be obedient to the commandments, and return to Him. We know man will fall, and we know that Satan will have power to tempt us. We will have our agency to choose Father or Satan’s way. When we get to earth, what will we do to demonstrate to Father that we want to follow His way? Exercise faith – great. Repent and obtain forgiveness of sin – great. What else?
Without the ordinances of the gospel, baptism is no longer required – how do we know if we belong to His church? Is going enough? What if there are multiple churches that all profess to be of God - which one is right? What identifying factors would make one stand out above the rest?
The gift of the Holy Ghost is also no longer available. Without this, we are children of God on earth left to our own devices to figure out right and wrong, good and evil. Granted, we have the light of Christ, but is that enough? How do we know we have not strayed from the right path? What constitutes the “right path”, anyway? How would you know it when you are on it?
(second half - I went on too long!)
ReplyDeleteContinuing the thought process: without ordinances, you no longer have the sacrament. You also eliminate the ordinances of the temple, which has two major effects – first, there can be no endowment of spiritual power that Father gives His children to assist them in their mortal journey – second, marriage is no longer eternal (which then presents a problem with the promise of eternal increase as a blessing of exaltation, unless you eliminate the law of chastity, which consequently destroys the concept of the family as we know it). To top it all off, without ordinances, you don’t really need the priesthood, either.
Inseparably intertwined in each ordinance we perform for ourselves is an associated covenant. With baptism, we covenant to come into the Church of Jesus Christ and obey His commandments. As we partake of the sacrament, we renew our baptismal covenants. Likewise, in the temple, covenants are made in conjunction with the ordinances. Without these covenants, how would we demonstrate to our Father our commitment to following His plan over Satan’s plan? And how would we demonstrate to ourselves (which I think might be equally important) that we are willing to follow the Father’s plan? Without ordinances, the associated covenants, and the priesthood to administer them, how would men know if they were on the path to salvation or damnation?
These questions – and mostly the fact that I can’t answer them in a way that makes logical sense – are sufficient to me to prove that a requirement for ordinances, covenants, and priesthood exists in mortality. The extension of the concept to those who have died requires only a look at the character and nature of our Father in Heaven. He is unchanging and eternal. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. He said, “…except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5) No man can be saved in any other way but by the way He has proclaimed. If these ideas are true, God cannot require that one man receive the ordinances of salvation and another man not receive them and give both the same reward. The doctrine of performing ordinances for those who have died resolves this quandary. All men have the opportunity to be saved; perhaps for those who have passed on it is more of a formality, but I would not be surprised to learn in the next life that the receipt of those ordinances by those in the spirit world has more significance than we now conjecture.
There is a really great talk by Elder Neuenschwander in the August 2001 Ensign called "Ordinances and Covenants" that I would recommend for your perusal.
Boston, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my question. I am not sure I can agree with your conclusions, but perhaps this blog isn't the place to discuss in-depth something so abstract.
ReplyDeleteI will certainly read that Neuenschwander article. Thank you!